Standing Still, but Still Standing
Tuesday, July 24, 2012
So this post will come as no surprise to anyone who's still paying attention (is anyone still paying attention? I have no idea...). I've done virtually nothing MUGEN-related since releasing Strong Guy back in February. The reasons for this are too complicated (and, frankly, personal, so none of your business, dear readers) for me to go into here. Suffice it to say that I haven't felt inspired for a long while now.
I just popped in to the ScruffyDragon forum yesterday for the first time in a while (I drop in every week or two to check my private messages, but that's really been about it), and found what amounted to a flamewar between Magus and somebody that was asking, basically, where all the cool stuff was that we were supposedly working on. July has come and nearly gone with nary a sign of ScruffyVersary, and I'll admit that makes me sad. But not sad enough to kill myself to release stuff that gets very little attention, feedback, or gratitude, mind you.
That was the gist of Magus and this guy's dispute. Magus's argument boiled down to this, basically: why should we (the Scruffy Dragon team) kill ourselves to release stuff when only the smallest handful of people give us any kind of feedback at all, other than to say "meh, okay, what's next?" Of course the other guy misinterpreted him (Magus gets misinterpreted more than anyone else I know) as saying that people should be kissing our butts and paying us money to keep working on stuff. Um, no, that's not what he's saying at all. What he's saying, and I agree with it, is that quality MUGEN creation takes a TON of effort when done right, and most of us senior Dragons have lost sight of the fun. It's become a freaking JOB to maintain a quality pipeline of output, and when the job takes us away from our families, doesn't pay, and isn't fun anymore, why on earth should we keep doing it? No one in their right minds would. That's why Loganir, Wucash, McCready, Seth Zankuten, and now Magus and I have all pretty much come to a standstill.
Oh, sure, occasionally we'll all still crank out something for the sheer fun of it (witness Loganir's recent reappearance), but the days of us sacrificing our lives, health, and time with those we love for the resounding "MEH" of the Internet are probably done.
I have a post in draft that I'll try to finish in the near future, detailing all of my not-yet-finished MUGEN projects, and what my plans are for each. See you then.
After reading this I went to the ScruffyDragon site to see the argument (flamewar is right - wow!).
I have very little that I can really contribute, I'm just someone that likes MUGEN and downloads when stuff comes out, but I have occasionally commented or said thanks to you guys or at other forums for what seems like a crazy amount of work to do for the fun of it. It is appreciated, and if you do decide to call it quits, Green Lantern is one of my favorites of all time (period) and I've gotten hours of consistent enjoyment from him and your other creations. ScruffyDragon, too.
But you know, I DID always assume it was for fun. I remember years ago, I created gaming manuals myself with drawings and other illustrations because I had the time and it was fun for me. Lots of work to do, but fun. If I still had the time, I'd probably be doing it and finding a way to put them online.
But I did show my stuff to friends to get their praise or admiration. It was nice. So, I should say to you and the other Scruffys, I have enjoyed the hell out of your stuff. One of my favorite things to do is see what you and other creators are up to - especially Marvel/DC as I have always been a comic fan. It is a shame when you guys call it quits, but maybe if it isn't fun anymore you should and enjoy what you did. Someone else will pick it up from there, I'm sure; just be players for a while.
I must admit, I should assume you guys need funds to support the online costs, but I always assumed you had some side deals that kept things going (ad space and all); Wikipedia does ask for outside funding when they need it.
If funding is a thing (I'm not assuming it is) why not ask? Some people will say no, but a lot of your stuff is pretty (damn) good, so some folks will be willing. I've had more than enough enjoyment from MUGEN that I wouldn't mind. And DLC is common enough nowadays.
But it doesn't sound like you or Magus really want that anyway. (Heck, Magus does seem pretty upset about something he's not saying it - if its complaints, even though he seems to HATE CVG and criticizes them, they're still going.) Well, hopefully it works itself out.
Thanks again and I hope you guys start having fun again! And if not, thanks for the fun I've had and will likely have as long as I'm playing MUGEN games.
Re-reading my post, it comes across a little more negative and pessimistic than I feel, I think, but the "it's no fun anymore" meme is certainly a real thing. Maybe it's a funk I'll grow out of -- or maybe not, I'm honestly not sure at this point. But I was listening to the Marvel vs Capcom 3 soundtrack this morning and it got me feeling inspired again, which is something I haven't felt in a little while. So we'll see where that goes.
The money, honestly, isn't a big deal, other than the little bit we would need to keep the web hosting and forum software running and up to date. I think right now the banner ads we're running pretty much take care of hosting and leave little else. But honestly that's Magus's realm of expertise, so I dunno.
It is still too bad that there are fights between other mugen sites as well because we all strive to make such great hero's/villains for Mugen. I am a member of CVG United, as well as at Sruffy and a few others, But I'm mainly at CVG cause I like to talk with people about the work they do. I have Mainly release Voice Packs (based on cartoon Characters of Superheroes) which i have shared with Scruffy as well. While i may not post here much, I may post a character I have Been Working on. With a good teacher I have had (Xero) and countless friends who have encouraged me (NX-MEN, Xero, Mach3, Highgamer, ect.)provided me with enough support to make this possible.
I am Making Jay Garrick (JSA Flash). I am a rookie, and this is my first attempt at a character, I have been working hard to make this as accurate, playable, and enjoyable to everyone. I hope you will get a chance one day to play him when he's finished. As reguards to your work, I hope you do get a chance to finish your projects (when you have the time) because you have made a great contribution to the mugen community and I and countless others thank you.
I do still have hope for Scruffy, so I don't feel that it's reached it's peak just yet.
Here's a sneak peak at Jay:
Good Luck to you, and all your endeavors.
Also its a fact that Scruffy is dying and that not due to the real life issues of the other dragons!!!
The reasons are 2:
First reason its Magus hostility for other forums and creators and the fact that he keeps producing drama!! I am sick of hearing that Magus hates other forums especially Cvg!! Badmouthing other sites made other members to leave Scruffy too!! Scruffy always mentions that it offers quality but i have seen lot of decent releases with very good quality in other forums too. The second reason is the banning policy of the site!!! Its a fact that all the talented creators are banned there and they dont support Scruffy's events! Moreover everybody is afraid to make even a post in Scruffy cause they might get banned!!! One day i asked a wips progress and it was not even a necrobump and then i noticed that my warning level became 30%!! Then i promise to myself not to post again in Scruffy! Now i only follow your blog daily!
Furthermore i found that other mugen forums like Cvg, IMT, unlimited team are more friendlier forums than Scruffy and they give opportunity to new creators to show their abilities and also get guidance,feedback and help!! Thats why the other forums are growing and are more popular now!!
Regarding the money issue Mugen is a hobby and is free! I am not fun of that commission trend that started these days!! I would never pay for a char and i am against that!
Finally i think u could increase your motivation by joining other forums that are more active now!!! Others did that and it had a good result!!! I am not telling u to give up Scruffy but it would be nice if u come in contact with other creators from other forums!!
I like that banner you've done for Jay; good luck, the MUGEN world deserves a good Golden Age Flash. :)
@Anon: I don't deny that Magus has blinders regarding certain people and forums, but kindly leave me out of it. Scruffy is my home, I co-founded the team with my friends, and I don't intend to abandon them (it would be like J'onn J'onzz leaving the JLA to join the Doom Patrol or something ;)). That said, I'm well aware of the Scruffy forum's lack of vitality, and while part of that may be due to heavy-handed admin policies, honestly it was never intended to be the same kind of forum as an Infinity or CVG, so if we Dragons aren't regularly posting things to stimulate conversation, it's really no surprise that not much happens otherwise.
As far as joining other MUGEN forums, well... I have accounts on all three of the ones you mentioned (Infinity, CVG, and Unlimited), but it's not a lack of interest on my part, it's a lack of time: if I don't have time to visit MY OWN FORUM, I certainly don't have time to visit those others ;).
Anyway, thank you both for your feedback. It's nice to know someone's still interested in what I have to say.
You know, I'm merely just another of those who come, download whatever looks good and moves on without ever saying anything. After reading this entry I felt like giving you my thoughts. I'm actually quite surprised you guys have had trouble with something like that. I consider ou people good artists who do amazing works for fun and then have the decency to share them. You should have always remembered, people are mostly stupid, and ot just that, but the most stupìd are always the most vocal. After all this time giving us so much it surprises me a bit that some of you actually even got into arguments with morons. Normally I just lurk, read and download stuff, in some big mugen sites with good release boards full of announcements from third parties, that are atill full of shitty people who just complain and act like they know everything, and give no good feedback to the poor creators, as if they owned them something. My point is, that should never happen with something like mugen. You don't owe anyone anything. I've enjoyed playing and even editting your characters for my own fun, and I'll keep doing it. I congratulate all of you for all you've done, and either if you decide to do nothing more or to continue creating good stuff, I thank you in the name of all the not so vocal, and (I want to believe) more normal people who really appreciate these amazing works that were born from your best intentions (and some ripping and frankenspriting ;) ) and I wish you guys the best of luck.
We should probably do the effort to be more vocal and actually sound thankful more often, just like you put the effort into sharing all this...
I think that's all I wanted to say. Best regards to you Buyog, to all the people from Scruffydragon and to everyone else out there doing amazing stuff for mugen or for anything that's only done for fun.
The Scruffy forum isn't quite what it used to be. A lot of people have come and gone. You're totally right about you guys not busting your butts just for some "mehs" from a few forum members.
I do hope we'll get to see DC vs Marvel in a totally finished state one day. That was always the biggest draw for me. Of course, you guys have expanded to many other projects and helping hands are few. Still it's a dream of mine. :P
Anyway, thanks for the update!
It's been a while since u've been in here but I understand why u haven't been on. I'll be honest with you. I'm a member of CVG but also a member in Scruffy Dragon. I love all of you guys and you guys make awesome work. Also you guys inspire me to make my own chars for MUGEN even though for me it's taking more time that I've anticipated but oh well as long as I can finish them and then put them out there so you guys can check them out. I hate to hear that you guys are fighting amongst yourselves but I understand the reason. As far as inspiration goes just take ur time on that and it'll come back to you if you really want to continue MUGEN creation. But remember: GOD,FAMILY,FRIENDS,LIFE comes first then MUGEN and any other fun activities that makes us waste time but have fun at the same time. It's a shame if you guys retire but then that's life and we all understand and we all appreciate all wat u've done. I know I appreciate all of ur work..... I love your work again it's awesome!!!!! Well just relax take ur time and hopefully u'll get ur MUGEN itch back soon or sooner than u might expect. Keep up ur awesome work because WE ALL love it and appreciate it. MUGEN RULES!!!!!!
> I do hope we'll get to see DC vs Marvel in a totally finished
> state one day. That was always the biggest draw for me. Of
> course, you guys have expanded to many other projects and
> helping hands are few. Still it's a dream of mine. :P
Me too! After all, that's the dream that started Scruffy in the first place...
@Anon: Thanks, and good luck on your own projects. :)
I DO commend you guys for your hard work and you do deserve feedback but as others have pointed out, its just not as friendly as other communities. You're one of the few guys from there that people feel comfortable talking to, that's why you see us responding and checking out a blog that's rarely updated lol
First off, its so difficult to even log in at Scruffy because you can't even see what you're typing to log in. I know you can highlight it to see it, but should people really have to do all that to sign in, or is it just the computers I get on that have this problem? Then most of the interesting topics are months old, there's no point in new members responding because if you do you'll get penalized for "necrobumping."
MugenGuild has a LOT of egos and ignorant feedback, but they still maintain a great community with numerous feedback and visits. Even CVG has a lot going on in their WIP topics. In my opinion, Scruffy and that new site that just started called Mugen Multiverse purposely isolate themselves that's why the feedback and users declined.
I'm one of those members of the community who says thanks. I can't give descriptive feedback like a Cybaster could, but I CAN type thanks if the char is fun. I'd love to somehow have Magus's War Machine or an update to Elektra in my roster some day but I doubt its gonna happen. I saw him say the last 12 days received minimum feedback and comments like "ok what's next"... yeah I get that, but it seemed rushed in my opinion. I understand real lives are involved, but I'd be content with a cancellation of the 12 days if the reason was flat out "real life got in the way, we've moved the release of these chars back TBA." To the casual Mugen user, Parasite and Strong Guy were the only keepers out of that. I come to Scruffy for DC and Marvel.. props to the guy who made the Dungeons game but that's not what attracted me to the site. The spriting tutorial was cool, but people put tutorials up every week, did it really need a big release like that? Just MY opinion, others can agree and others can disagree.
Seems like the "flame wars" with Magus begin because he can't accept people's opinions as opinions. I read that whole post and it seems like he's just rude to everyone voicing their opinions on why the community at Scruffy declined. As good of a creator that he is, nobody wants to post at a community where you get snapped on for voicing your thoughts. I don't think the TeuthexII guy had to go that far with his language but he DID make valid points I agree with. I understand Magus wanting more feedback for his work but you're not gonna get the feedback you'd like to hear until someone posts it at the Guild or something because people have either already left the forum or feel that the only feedback warranted is sucking up.
I love Batman, Superman, Thor, Luthor, Parasite, Strong Guy, Hal Jordan, Lobo, etc. and these are ALL Scruffy creations. That said, I will STILL be a regular visitor to YOUR blog Buyog in hopes of any updates. I'll STILL visit Scruffy's homepage in hopes of updates, but I'm passing on clicking on the forum. I doubt I'm the only person who feels this way either but this is just my thoughts of the Scruffy situation until things get adjusted.
the most decent people could do that once I visit your page is to close the domain and the page as such because I feel sad to see a page that already left a putrid, stinking corpse.
Gone are the projects marvel vs dc, the amazin spiderman, pocket universe among others, there is nothing interesting on that site and other sites like cvg united, unlimited mugen, mugenguild among others take more seriously their projects do not forget that all for fun.
Most of all, you set a precident, a higher standard to achieve and new ideas to use in a myriad of new ways. These things you have pioneered have not become so widespread, but if I see them surface elsewhere, I'll know where it begun. If nothing else, you guys made art.
If Marvel vs DC does eventually come out, know that it one could be fooled into thinking it was an official sanctioned release somewhere, sometime... Possibly in a pleasant dream somewhere.
You made a difference. You all made a difference.
Inscribe your name in history...
The current trend that Magus is following by isolating Scruffy can only serve to further stunt the growth of the team. MUGEN is a community-driven engine, and as such the creations and creators reach their full potential when done in a community way. CVG, one of the most notoriously stubborn and isolated teams, has recently started to come around to this and have started really accepting Guild's and others' feedback. As a result, their projects have started to improve in quality and their community has begun to grow even more. I know you guys want more feedback on your releases, but not release the stuff on other boards will only limit your exposure. Also, as said during the flamewar, while the Dragons might enjoy all the stuff they release, they need to understand that their audience might not appreciate it the same way. This is why the pockets and D&D games are not received with the same amount of enthusiasm as other projects. People coming for MvC style DC and Marvel characters aren't going to be super stoked about a pocket release. Imagine going to a Avengers movie and instead being treated to a showing of Force Works. Not really the same feeling, right?
I encourage you to stay with MUGEN, or maybe make a comeback in a few months when you feel ready again. Honestly, maybe releasing some stuff as a stand-alone creator would be in your best interests - releasing stuff away from the stigma that Scruffy has accumulated might open your creations to more feedback. Also, people might be willing to contribute more - Acey at IMT and Rajaa at MFG are both working on Rogue's that use similar power stealing to parasite. Why not compare notes on some stuff? Hell, Acey even has his Rogue changing palettes based on stolen powersets - imagine what you could do with all those alternate palettes that parasite has.
In closing, whatever you decide, good luck to you. I would only ask that if you do choose to leave MUGEN, you release some of your resources and unfinished work so maybe others could pick up where you left off. It's a shame when a creator leaves and takes all his unfinished work with him when there are plenty of willing creators that can pick up the projects. It might even inspire you to one day return and see how some of your previous creations have grown under the tutelage of others.
Oh and BTW, your blog really hats Java7 - it took me several tries to get past the captcha page cause it kept messing up and making the buttons dissappear.
I have no idea what the deal is with your captcha bug, but it's not my site, I'm just a thin wrapper around Blogger, so it's likely a problem for you on other Blogger blogs too.
However, I can say that it was motivated by him asking for money and nothing else. That is exactly what he said; he said that he would not release more characters unless he got donations. If he didn't mean that, he shouldn't have said it. If you don't mean that, that's wonderful. You (plural) of course don't have to release characters or do any mugen work, but holding it back because you don't get enough ass-kissing/donations, like he explicitly said he did with War Machine, is very, very, very wrong.
When he explained why Phase 1 and Lethal Syndicate never happened, I withdrew those objections; people were simply never told that, and can't be expected to sprout telekinetic powers to understand why... I don't want to say 'promises weren't kept' but I can't think of another way of putting it. You know what I mean. Why things that were previewed were never released. People don't know those things if they're not told.
I also remember saying that it's Magus's own actions that caused his releases to go unnoticed/unpraised. As has been said over and over again; it's his own forum and he can run it how he likes. That's true. However, running it how he likes has caused it to become a hostile environment for just about everyone, and some parts are literally broken, making new accounts difficult to create. It's not right to blame other people for not praising him when he's driven those people away.
Like I said, I can't see the 'flame war' anymore, and I don't feel like getting a new e-mail and a new account and a new proxy just so that I can. I can't defend or apologize for or distance myself from what I said because I only have a vague recollection of what it was. However, what I know it was was talking to Magus, not you, not Scruffydragon as a whole, Magus. I know you. I've had good dealings with you for a long time, leaving feedback here rather than Scruffy because I've been banned there sixty-trillion times, and I have no reason whatsoever to disrespect you or tell you what you should or shouldn't do with your time. I even helped fix a code issue or two on Guido and got credited in the readme (and I apologize profusely if I contributed to killing your enthusiasm by pushing too hard on that).
But... my point is that I've given you feedback here because I know I'm not going to get yelled at or banned for it. If I don't like your work, I like to think I can say so, though I generally won't if I can't do so constructively. I don't even want to say that I like things at Scruffy, because it feels like all I can say is the generic '+1 good character'; it'll be ignored or outright opposed, even if it's something people don't care about or don't like, like D&D games or pocket characters, we have to say we do or shut our mouths to stay around. That's why people prefer not to say anything at all, and find their content elsewhere.
Please don't take any of what I said as disrespect towards you, and if you want to discuss any of it further I'd be happy to if only I knew what it was. You're one of the creators in MUGEN that I have the utmost respect for, and I'd feel very very shitty indeed if something I said caused you to lose enthusiasm for something you once enjoyed.
If you ever need my help, whether for fixing code or even for spriting (which I've gotten into recently), all you need to do is ask. I hope to see more from you in the future, but I'll perfectly understand if you don't ever touch MUGEN again. Thanks for all that you've done, and I wish you all the best in life.
That said, I've always appreciated your feedback on my chars, and that's not the reason I'm burnt out on MUGEN. Things just happen, you know?
"We even agreed to not release more stuff until certain number of comments were achieved on each release or announcement, and as today the bar hasn't reached."
So apparently I made up the part about him mentioning war machine specifically. My bad. At the time I took this to mean that you had characters all lined up (like a final release for last 12 Days) and merely refrained from releasing them. If that's not the case, then I had nothing to bitch about.
Not working on things because you don't want to = Totally cool!
Working on things to give to us = AWESOME!
Finishing them, withholding them, and taunting the community with them until you get money/asskissing = Utter horrible bullshit.
If the latter didn't happen, great! My mistake! But my god I am even still angry at just the thought of it. I'm done rehashing it here, just wanted to find what he actually said that I reacted to, and respond to it, instead of the he said she said crap that I could have (and apparently did) get wrong because it was months ago.
It's your total right to be burnt out, or to not find it fun anymore. You have no obligation to release anything, and keeping us updated about your future plans is all we have any right to ask for, and hey, look, you're doing that! Awesome!
Go on, man. Enjoy life. The world isn't gonna end if you don't sprite Sinestro or something. If you think you'll have fun again, come back! Your fans (and you have plenty, regardless of how few are willing to comment on SD forums), myself included, will still be around, and a bit of transparency should be all that's needed to keep us happy, or else we're the assholes.
Now I'm gonna sit here and drool over Tekken Tag 2 footage. :P
Mugen as a whole is FAR from dead but there are certain groups WITHIN the community that are dying.. most notably those dedicated to DC and Marvel. Scruffy has a LOT of respected creations. There's barely any DC characters out there yet most came from Scruffy. If you look at the "Rate a Roster" threads at A LOT of the more respected forums you'll see Superman, Hal Jordan and a host of others in a lot of rosters... the problem is Scruffy itself.
I know characters take a while to create but there's been little to no updates to any chars from Scruffy outside of Hal, Strong Guy and Parasite.. ALL Buyog creations. Hell, I had to go to MugenGuild to get an unauthorized updated Batman by Alucard.
There's a lot of talented people out there who could finish the works of those unfinished chars Scruffy are holding onto like ZVitor who makes great DC/Marvel chars, but I understand the whole you guys want them finished by the team thing.
The problem is the site is known for DC and Marvel and real life got in the way so there became a lack of updates or even news of what's going on. In 2012 there's literally been nothing the core fanbase comes there for to download besides Strong Guy.
Yeah there's WIPs on the board but a lot of people gave up hope on a lot of those chars a while ago and have migrated to places like IMT where they at least live up to releasing chars. I remember hearing that Super JOKER gave his Blade sprites to someone from Scruffy before he quit Mugen for good and I just shook my head because that meant that we'll most likely never see that character come to light.
I see ppl mentioning War Machine and I see he's not done... but that's a very in demand char and a LOT of the recent Scruffy releases have been alphas and betas that are clearly not finished with either no hypers or placeholders for sprites, but Magus is in charge of that character and on the forum he had an attitude about it and seemed like he was teasing the ppl who LOVE his works like he could finish it... IF he wanted to.
and that's terrible news to hear about McCready.. he's contributed a lot of works people love. Hope he gets better soon
With that thought as a basis, I completely understand where you're coming from. My drive in mugen is mostly due to the support I feel from those around me and if that disappeared then I would feel empty with this hobby. Of course there are always the elements of overcoming new challenges and completing something that you're proud of but those take a back seat to outside support. Honestly though, every year for the last 2 years I planned it to be my last with Mugen but once I stepped away for a moment to take a breath I end up getting pulled back in with a new time consuming monster and unfinished creations. My advice would be to walk away and I say that knowing that you'll be pulled back in again too.
Judging from the feedback, I've summed up that people aren't a fan of the hospitality at Scruffy and they've recently had a loss of interest in the site due to releases that aren't what they expect of the site they loved in the past. On the contrary, the creators aren't a fan of putting blood, sweat and tears into a hobby and not getting feedback for it.
I feel like we're all to blame.. from the creators to the people who download the stuff. Some creators limit themselves by only posting their works in their own forums. From what I've seen, the Guild can give you the most comprehensive feedback... I've even seen some of the Guild's BEST feedback givers even sign up on other sites like Cybaster.
If Magus decreased his ego.... if Scruffy promoted their works EVERYWHERE.... if people left feedback, at least a "thanks for making this! It's fun!".... then maybe things would go back to normal.